AAVSO Binocular Program

I am puzzled by the inclusion of many stars in this program with amplitudes of less than 2 magnitudes.

Perusing the light curves of these stars generated by all observers shows no periodicity, as is the case for some (many?) individual observers. There seem to be occasional observers whose data traces light curve segments that seem plausible. I have not tried to verify these using other sources.

I don’t see the benefit of much of the type of data described above. In my opinion the magnitude ranges of such targets are too small for visual programmes because mostly it is not possible to achieve precise estimates.

On the other hand, these bright stars would suit a well-executed DSLR observing program determining transformed magnitudes using equipment that captures images a few degrees across.

1 Like

Those are fair questions. Regarding the amplitude, my thought would be that most binoculars would be unable to follow the full light curve of a star with an amplitude of, say, 4 or 5 magnitudes, whereas a light curve spanning 2 magnitudes or less might fall entirely within the reach of binoculars, allowing a binocular observer to maintain continuous observation of the target. And many stars with an amplitude of just a single magnitude make excellent visual targets, such as U Vul or X Cyg. And, based on extensive scrutiny of discrepant entries in the AAVSO database, I can report that DSLR observations often contain just as many errors, and just as egregious errors, as purely visual observations.

Regarding your second question, about irregular light curves, that’s indeed the nature of many types of variable stars (see any standard reference, such as AAVSO’s own web page at Types of Variable Stars: A Guide for Beginners | aavso), including entire genres such as irregular, semiregular, and cataclysmic variables). Quite possibly there’s even more to be learned (and hence greater scientific value) from observations of those stars than from Mira stars or other highly regular stars that seem to be very well understood by now.

So, overall, my perception is that the current AAVSO Binocular Program is well-conceived and not in need of any radical overhaul for now. Having said that, I have developed a lengthy list of my own binocular targets based on similar criteria (bright enough, sufficient amplitude, good comp sequence available, etc.) that overlaps only somewhat with the AAVSO Binocular Program list. Any of us can do that, or could also observe any of the “official” program stars digitally rather than visually, and those observations would also comprise valuable contributions to the database.

2 Likes

Thank you for your detailed response. I may not have enunciated my concern clearly enough.

For stars in the binocular program with magnitude ranges of less than 2 (visual), the challenge would be to undertake successful period analysis. My concern is that the visual data is not accurate enough to allow this to occur. There may be some exceptions, one of which you mentioned in your response (X Cyg).

It is easy to see the problem. Select a number of Binocular Program stars with small ranges, and for each of them plot Visual observations in the LCG for the entire date range. Choose shorter time spans for a closer look.

By way of comparison, select a number of legacy LPV stars and do a similar thing. In contrast to the low range Binocular Program stars it is quite clear that the visual data for LPVs would allow detailed period analysis for many stars, as has been done by Matthew Templeton, John Percy and others publishing in the JAAVSO.

Ah yes, I can see that. But then, period analysis is not the only goal or method of variable star research; otherwise there would be no reason to collect data on irregular, semiregular, or cataclysmic variables. If we select a sample of such irregular stars and plot – not visual – but DSLR or CCD observations, we would not be able to do “successful period analysis” whether those stars were on the binocular program list or not. So that would not be a criticism of the binocular program per se, nor even a criticism of visual observation, but a broader (and spurious) critique.

Another aspect of the critique related to small amplitude and imprecision of visual observations. That’s a fair question and subject to empirical assessment. For example, we could check the dispersion of visual observations of LPVs to gauge just how imprecise visual observations in the database are on average. I have not done so myself, but I seem to recall that Arne Henden once estimated that the standard deviation of visual observations about the true light curve was about 0.3 magnitude on average, and it has been established that some experienced observers can make visual estimates that are consistently accurate to within 0.05 magnitude (that is, even more precise than the rounded comp magnitudes shown on AAVSO charts). Based partly on such findings, previous AAVSO staff have historically made a determination that visual observations are worth doing for stars with amplitudes as small as a single magnitude, and this has been encoded in specific advice to observers.

If we think it might be time to revisit that principle, it’s also relevant to examine how reliable DSLR or CCD observations are. I’m not aware of any formal analysis being done on that but, as I noted before, I have seen numerous egregious outliers among CCD observations in the database, and other AAVSO staff have noted this pattern also. Although in principle digital observations, done properly, should ideally be more precise than visual observations, mistakes happen and the rosy outcome does not always emerge. As a data validator, I have even caught some errors in the database submitted by professional astronomers! So we are not yet at the point where we can dismiss visual observations and rely solely on digital ones.

In addition, AAVSO staff have stated that any stars which already have a long time series of visual observations can benefit from continued visual observations into the future (not only the Legacy LPV program) regardless of the advent of new technology in the meantime.

So I remain generically supportive of the process that underlies the AAVSO binocular program. I would agree that the list isn’t “perfect” (whatever that means) but also reiterate my previous thought that anyone is free to ignore various stars on the list (as on any other list) and/or to contribute observations of other stars not on the list. To do that (which I do all the time) we don’t need to legislate a wholesale revision of the list.

2 Likes

But if the data is not susceptible to period analysis, neither would it display informative light curves of irregular or semiregular variables.

I agree that there are skilled observers. Unfortunately those capable of recording good visual light curves for small amplitude variables seem to be in the minority.

Again, unfortunately, observers may not elect to make such judgments. This can be seen when data submitted by individual observers is highlighted in light curves. Some of the data shows no or almost no periodicity even for periodic variables despite ample numbers of data points.

I am somewhat uncomfortable writing the above. Observers do what they do for various reasons, including the simple joy of observing, and deserve thanks and support. But that does not mean we should not look at the data critically (in the scientific sense).

Roy,

In the olde days… :star_struck: You would hopefully have a good observer or two who where consistent, were long-term observers of the star, and all others could be judged against. One off observations that were an outlier compared to the good observers could easily be removed. Iterative process, some judgement involved. If you have a lot of data after the observer-based filtering you might be able to do some light statistical filtering.

Good visual observers using either naked eye, binocular or telescope could be consistent to the 0.1 magnitude level for well behaved stars like the LPV program stars, R Leo or Mira for example.

Here is Gamma Cas plotted over a long time period, visual observations only plotted. Tough to see any significant variation, not many comparison stars, far away, etc. Clearly there are some observers with bias that could be removed or an observer bias value applied. There are enough observations that binning or generating a running mean or similar could be applied to bring out some detail. A lot of work and a lot of judgement and then you would ask the question is it Memorex?

Gamma Cas according to VSX has a range of 1.6 - 3.0 V. Sebastian has a note that indicates that the AAVSO data shows only 2.11 to 2.21 range.

There is some strange stuff in Gamma Cas’s LC. Usually visual observations are reported to the 0.1 magnitude level. However, there are a good number of observations that appear to have been smoothed, averaged or something.

So yes for low-amplitude variables that don’t have nice regular variation it may not be worth your time visually observing them or you might treat them as a challenge. :scream:

Plotting X Cyg over the last month or two is a great example of having a few observers who observe the object regularly and with very good consistency. Easy to toss out the one off or few observation observers leaving a nice LC that can be phase-folded over a season.

Jim (DEY)

Jim,

The strange observations between the 0.1 mag levels mostly seem to be BAA-VSS affiliated.
They are labelled Visual but I don’t see how they can be.

1 Like

I was thinking about it… and I suppose you could estimate in fractions between a bracketing comparison pair around the variable then generate a real number magnitude adjustment that might account for those measures. Using say the 27 and 34 comp stars and estimating in fractions between the two comps and reported to the 0.01 magnitude precision. Say Gamma Cas was 6/10th (0.6) of the brightness between the 27 and 34 (0.7 magnitude) and you would get 6/10 * 0.7 = 0.42 to add to the 27 = 3.12 for your visual estimate and report that. I’m guessing that is what was done for those. Needs to be verified.

I would have reported 3.1 not 3.12 but that is just me.

Jim (DEY)

I’ve just had a closer look at the Gamma Cas visual light curve.
Your suggestion could I think explain the appearances.
If that is the case I’m trying to think of a logical reason for that approach and can’t come up with one. In my view it would be analagous to quoting non-significant digits after the decimal point for measured parameters.

1 Like

Maybe some of the EU observers have super-eye-sight and visually measure brightness better than the rest of us! :rofl: I’m waiting for the first AI produced “visual” magnitude estimate! :robot: :alien:

As one of those visual observers who used to get accurate estimates when I was active, I can tell you that those points are just the result of reporting your estimates to two decimal places.
It is not something strange. You don’t necessarily use 0.1 mag. steps to estimate variable star brightness.
That would be the Pogson method, but if you adopt the Argelander method, you can just use the number of steps that you consider useful given the brightness differences you observe, and then, knowing the magnitude difference between the two comparison stars (always taken with two decimal places, not one), you get a value for the step that may be anything: 0.1, 0.05, 0.03, etc.

I was a naked eye observer mostly focused on detecting small brightness differences.
I started observing constant stars in order to improve the accuracy of my observations. That’s how I discovered the variability of both delta Scorpii and delta Velorum: they weren’t shining as they were supposed to.
Delta Sco was only 0.09 mag. brighter when I realized something was going on, in June 2000.

After that, my main goal became detecting Be star outbursts and eclipses of systems without known periods :smiley:
I succeeded, detecting small amplitude outbursts of ome CMa, mu Cen and other GCAS stars. I also detected eclipses of some of those unsolved EAs and solved them (VZ PsA, KV CMa, V0438 Pup and others).

I attach a light curve of the early years of the del Sco eruption, that combines my observations with photoelectric and CCD observations made by other observers.

In order to detect these small brightness variations, you can’t set your magnitude steps to 0.1 and you can’t use comparison stars that are 0.7 mag. apart like in Jim’s example.

I used a dense set of comp stars spanning all the variable range and with magnitude differences that might be 0.1 or less in some cases.
You first check that you are able to see the differences between all of them, in a kind of “calibrate your eyes” exercise, and then you continue by comparing the variable against all of them until you are sure where it fits, that is, you choose the closest brighter and fainter comp stars.
I tried to have comp stars with similar colors in all sequences, because that minimized the errors. When you have a good sequence, good colors, similar magnitudes, and very close in the sky, you can get amazing results.
I understand that not everyone can get them. Experience, patience, an appropriate technique and good eyesight are required, and that’s where the observer’s responsability comes into play.
Before jumping to observe small amplitude variables visually and report your results to 0.01 mag., you need to prove yourself that you are able to do it. Otherwise you are adding noise to the database…
But we can’t prevent people to submit data like that if they think it is worth it. We might be losing useful information.
Most of my data would be useless if reported to 0.1 mag.
Everyone should select stars for their program that match the precision that they can get.
There will always be a suitable target for everyone.

In the case of del Sco, my comparison star sequence is bet Cru (1.26v), lam Sco (1.62v), eps Sgr (1.84), the Sco (1.86), sig Sgr (2.09), eps Sco (2.29) and alf Lup (2.30v).
(yes, there are some small amplitude variables, because at these magnitudes, it is very difficult to have completely constant stars, it is what it is…)

Naked eye observations have the issue that the comp stars may be spread across large sky areas and you may have to change comp stars depending on the time of the year, because some of them may be too low to be used at times. Even then, you can get very good results.

In short, what you may see in the gam Cas light curve are observations submitted by visual observers with two decimal places because they are using the Argelander method, that allows more flexibility than the Pogosn method.
If that is justified in the case of gam Cas, that’s another story.

gam Cas settled into a quiescent state after its gigantic outburst, and the fact that is behaving like a <0.1 mag. variable, with periodic variations with amplitudes even much smaller than that, makes visual observations not useful to study such behaviour.
However, these are irregular variables. gam Cas might wake up and have another outburst, so keeping an eye on it is important.
I would defer to each observer’s responsability to decide if their estimate precision deserves reporting of results to two decimal places.
From what I see in the light curve, it’s not bad at all.
Actually, if you report a 0.1 mag. variable to 0.1 mag. precision, you are probably just checking that it didn’t go into outburst. I would leave that star to peppers or to people who are confident they can get results better than 0.1 mag.

Well, it was too long a reply, but this has been my life for more than 20 years so I had to speak up!

Good observing.
Sebastian

2 Likes

I think the visual BAA-VSS observations with magnitude steps smaller than 0.1 could be recalculated afterwards when the compairsion stars got new magnitude values. Probably the original observation was a stepwise observation between two compairson stars.

It might be worth noting, in great praise for what Sebastian did in his earlier days, that his visual observations were far from casual. He didn’t just glance up at a field and make an estimate, but I’ll bet he would spend 20 minutes making a single determination.
One can get a good idea of how non-trivial this was by looking at the discovery circumstances of the eclipses of delta Vel. Algol, for instance, has eclipses every 2.9 days that are 1.2 mag deep. So you can imagine that over the course of a few weeks you could notice multiple dimming events, since they are obvious with only somewhat more than casual observation.
So delta Vel by contrast has eclipses only every 45 days that are 0.5 mag deep at most, which is quite subtle for naked-eye observation. There are a lot of similarly bright stars in that sweep of the Milky Way — would you have noticed this slight difference happening only every six weeks?! (…and recognizing it for what it was?) About all I can say is “wow!”.

\Brian

1 Like

My first involvement in the AAVSO was about 2002 when I started visual observations of variable stars. I was astonished at Sebastian’s visual light curves, and believe the likely truth of Brian’s quote above. I could never match that accuracy (how many could?) and to make what I considered acceptable estimates of magnitudes it took me also quite some time on each field observed. I was never a prolific observer, but care and practice yield results. For example, the attached is a small part of the AAVSO’s light curve of RX Leporis, just the sort of star that prompted my initial post in this thread, with my binocular observations highlighted and showing an amplitude of 0.8 mag.

2 Likes

@Roy_Axelsen_ARX , @Sebastian_Otero and @bskiff -

Gamma Cas is an interesting one, as Sebastian mentioned it is in a quiescent state and I started regularly visual observing it with binoculars in 2021 and over about 3 years (thank you pandemic!). I was interested in its reported small variations within the quiescent state, and it is a bright star (tough for ccd’s). A new challenge for small binoculars when the bright comparison stars like; Alpha Per, Beta And, others.. are far apart. I used the Argelander method with .1 steps, trying to keep it simple and learn something new. My observations range from 1.9 to 2.4 over 3 years. I know these observations have some level of error, but I hope they are useful for future reference. The main benefit was probably to myself, and keeping my sanity after learning the basics of visual variable star observing using the suggested binocular program during the pandemic.

1 Like

I started regularly visual observing it with binoculars in 2021 and over about 3 years (thank you pandemic!). I was interested in its reported small variations within the quiescent state

Hi Andrew!

I will have to disagree with the method you chose.
There is a rule of thumb in variable star observing that goes “use the lowest magnification possible for a given target” in order to get reliable estimates.
For a 2nd magnitude star, using binoculars makes it very difficult to observe brightness differences due to two main problems:

  1. The star will be too bright and it is difficult to detect small differences when so much light is entering your cones and rods (a good magnitude range to obtain good results is 1-4 mag. above your limiting magnitude).
  2. You won’t have comparison stars in the same field of view.

gam Cas is a naked eye object, so my question is why aren’t you observing it with the naked eye? That way you will get the advantage of having many comparison stars that you will be able to check with quick glances.

In experiments I made in order to compare the accuracy of my estimates when changing from naked eye to binoculars and telescope, I found out that if I was able to geat mean errors of 0.05 or so for naked eye observations under ideal conditions, those errors were much closer to the typical 0.1 quoted precision of visual observations when I was using binoculars and 0.1 or even worse with telescopes.
It didn’t come as a surprise, since fields of view get smaller and you are adding layers between your eyes and the objects, which will contribute to the final errors.

If you used 0.1 mag. steps, then you were using the Pogson method.
If you got it between 1.9 and 2.4, that is a 0.5 mag. amplitude when we know the star is varying more or less 0.1, so it is definitely not a good target to try to detect small amplitude variations, especially with binoculars.
If you observe it, I recommend using gam And instead of bet And, because the latter is a red giant and varies by almost 0.1 mag. But both are red so they can be tough to compare with the blue target. alpha Per and beta Cas are probably the best comp stars, although slightly variable too.

Cheers,
Sebastian

2 Likes